Planning

[theantikid]

Hi everyone,
We have just seen a post on another forum saying that you have to have planning permission for making internal changes to your house.
We want to take a couple of walls down in or house which is very old and were told we were ok to do this.
The people in trouble on the other forum cant sell their house owing to works done by the previous occupant, that their lawyer did not pick up on.
So now we are confused, is it down to individual camaras and we do not have any original plans for our house so would we need permission or not.
Yes we will be visiting the Camara to double check, but we know you guys are good with this stuff and would like to be armed with info when we go.
We DO NOT want to be illegal, so don’t wish to just get away with something.
Hope you can help.
Thanks in advance
_________________
They are not hot flushes,
They are power surges.

[chas & linda]

Our previous house was registered pre 51, but when we purchased it 5 years ago, we did have to register line drawings, naming rooms, sizes and areas with the Camra, that would have formed the basis of any internal changes we might have wanted to make, subsequently.

If the internal layout of the house isn't registered, then you shouldn't have any problems, apart from checking there not loadbearing or necassery to the fabric of the building.

If you find you do have to register the internal layout, then register your "new" layout

[theantikid]

Hi You two,
Thanks so much for that. OH is going to go and find out if there are any plans as a starting point.
They have built a new kitchen on the side of the house so presumably if there arent plans then they didnt get planning permission for that and we will have to sort it out.
The two walls arent structural and having them out will make it a lot easier to put concrete floors in, as we are riddled with wood worm and the floors are very bouncy.
Will keep fingers crossed.
Many thanks
_________________
They are not hot flushes,
They are power surges.

[lobito]

Are those bouncy floors on the groundfloor, or on the first floor?

Careful because changing the materials (like replacing wood for for concrete might put you on the wrong side of the law (you might or might not be caught, that's another matter).

[theantikid]

Hi Lobito,
We have the adegas with dirt floors and then these wooden floors which make up the ceilings of the adegas. The house is all on one level with an atic space above.
I am glad you have told me this as we do not want to just do things and hope they are not noticed.
OH is going down on Monday with a list of things to ask and we have now added the floors to the list.
Many thanks for the info hopefully it will save us grief later.
_________________
They are not hot flushes,
They are power surges.

[lobito]

[theantikid]

Hi Lobito,
I can see the logic of what you are saying about the concrete floors and we are going to sit down this afternoon and have a talk about it.
As we have to do the work ourselves it would be a lot easier to use wood and we had not thought about the weight issues regarding the walls.
We have had builders around to give us quotes for putting in concrete floors, so thought it would be OK as they did not say anything about the weight issue.
As for the removal of the walls, we were going to put support beams across the ceiling to compensate for the walls being taken out, so will mention this at the Camara when we go.
Hopefully they will point us to where we go to find out about buiding regs.
_________________
They are not hot flushes,
They are power surges.

[paramonte]

Interior alterations can be done without licence as long as you don't offend the PT building codes: RGEU (Regime Geral das Edificações Urbanas) and Lei das Acessibilidades (LA)

Otherwise would be caos in the building world, of course. What would be the point of having a strict building code when the house is built, and then in the day you receive the habitation licence, you could change everything at your will?

For instance, acording to the above mentioned codes the bathrooms have to have a minimal size, in only one of the bathrooms of the house a wheelchair has to be able to do a turn, so there are a set of minimal sizes and rules. Also you can not do a room whose dimentions is below the limit stated in RGEU.

Other case, if you have a stairs to the upper floor, the stairs (in the upper floor) can not end up right in front of a room door. Why? The danger of somebody leaving the room in a hurry and falling down the stairs (thinking about children playing).

So my advise is before doing the alterations ask a buider/enginner/architect if your alterations are OK regarding the PT codes. Then if you want do the alterations yourself.

Other option is to buy RGEU and LA in any book-shop and follow the rules.

As Lobito put be carefull with changing from wood to concrete without carefully re-thinking the structural support of the concrete beams themselves, otherwise you will be building a castle in the thin air.

[chas & linda]

http://www.milbank.co.uk/beam-and-block-load-span-table.php

Apologies to original poster, can't remember who now, but a very useful link, to work out beams, weight etc.
It is also possible to reduce the weight of the floor by adding approiate size clay beads to mix, and useing the right type of infill block.

As lobito says you can take bounce out of floor, a lot depends on what you want longterm, woodworm problem, and the look you want to property.

"As for the removal of the walls, we were going to put support beams across the ceiling to compensate for the walls being taken out, so will mention this at the Camara when we go."

This sounds a bit strange, if the walls aren't loadbearing, you shouldn't need to put beams, think you should check this.

[lobito]

1) If you have to do the work yourselves, it is very simple: you absolutely have to do only what can be done without a project and a license, as the Câmara will give the license only to a specific builder with the appropriate alvara (building license).

Some things require only an information to the Câmara, though: for example, if you have to repair the roof you will have to inform them (might be different from pace to place, but i was advised to specify that I was keeping the same materials and wouldn't change the structure). BTW, apparently Câmaras are very sensitive to roofs, because people typically take advantage of the repair works to raise them and add an extra floor.

2) As to the beam across (I presume across the house from stone wall to stone wall), it was apparently the idea that my husband had. It would have to be a big one, though.

3) You're run of the mill builder will probably tell you that a "placa" is the perfect solution for your problems:people think it is more resistant, doesn't require maintenance and is more "modern". But you just should not do it with those old walls. I would say that it is a good way of knowing if the builder is to trust working on an old building or not (most aren't)

[theantikid]

Hi everyone,
I feel like those people on that advert where an airbag goes off in their tummies
Paramonte,
Thanks for that, will get a copy of the regs as you advise,
Chas and Lind,
We were going to put a beam up as a sort of belt and braces approach not because the wall was load bearing, we figured it couldnt hurt!
Lobito,
From what has been said on here, we now Know that two builders have quite happily fed us bullshine.
We actually think we might leave it as it is and sell if we arent able to do the work ourselves as we were hit badly by the euro when we bought and have no spare cash left.
First stop Camara, next stop estate agent.
_________________
They are not hot flushes,
They are power surges.

[chas & linda]

We were going to put a beam up as a sort of belt and braces approach not because the wall was load bearing, we figured it couldnt hurt!

The beam could have the opposite effect by putting further weight onto external walls.

[shelby]

When we did our barn conversation we wanted a size 8 H beam put in as extra support for the attic floor.

The planning man did the calculations and we ordered it from the local blacksmith who measured and measured the length and still got it wrong.

The builder spent a full day digging out footing for a pillar at each end then filled a box with a metal frame then poured a mixture of cement and brita, it dried out over a couple of days then the H beam was brought into the house by about 10 people and it was cut to size and welded into place with the top of the metal frame protruding from the box.
The planning man checked it over and that was that.

Not something for the unskilled as Chas says doing it wrong can cause problems with the retaining walls.
_________________
Two bedroom cottage to rent in Tabua, Central Portugal
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[Ollie]

By "placa" do you mean a concrete ring beam which sits on top of the outer walls to take the weight of a second storey?

[arq.MarcoCarrico]

internal changes without changing the structure or external walls you dont need a permission and thats what the RGEU says, what you might need if you are going to make some work is to let the camera know that you are going t dosome work inyour house and be adviced to work o some conditions to avoid noide disturbs to your neigbours.