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UK guy here, can i just rock up, NIF up, and then get a visa later?


Posts: 10
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Topic starter
(@krisw83)
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Joined: 8 months ago

I'm a Brit, planning to come to Portugal this summer. My plan is rent a place short term, get a bank account and then get a NIF. Can I then get a longer term visa while I'm there on my 90 day non EU person allowance?
Im still not sure what visa to get, i can support myself, and have investments that could buy a house. 

Thanks for any input, especially from other Brits who know how to navigate to properly get registered long term - I want to take advantage of Portugal's incredible 0% tax on crypto currency

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39 Replies




Posts: 175
Ask Our Expats Consultant
(@pamalcobaca)
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Joined: 1 year ago

This might be useful to you - as this is a new system for Brits not a lot of us have gone through this process yet! Good luck! https://imigrante.sef.pt/en/prorrogar-permanencia/

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30 Replies
Community Member
(@krisw83)
Joined: 8 months ago

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@pamalcobaca thanks but it seems thats for extending a stay. And im not actually in Portugal yet.

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Ask Our Expats Consultant
(@pamalcobaca)
Joined: 1 year ago

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Posts: 175

@krisw83 ah sorry, I thought you meant you would travel here without a visa!

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Community Member
(@krisw83)
Joined: 8 months ago

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Posts: 10

@pamalcobaca yes i did, but isnt extending the stay for those that were already in portugal before brexit? Maybe im understanding it wrong

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Ask Our Expats Consultant
(@pamalcobaca)
Joined: 1 year ago

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Posts: 175

@krisw83 according to this, you should apply for a visa in your home country https://imigrante.sef.pt/en/entrada-em-portugal/

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@krisw83 It seems to depend on how long you want to stay in Portugal, for me I would like to send the winter in the Algarve, so I can travel as a visitor for 90 days and whilst I'm in Portugal I can apply to extend my visit for up to, a further 90 days (180 days in total), I have not been able to find any option to apply for up to 180 days from outside of Portugal.

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Ask Our Expats Consultant
(@pamalcobaca)
Joined: 1 year ago

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Posts: 175

@tygger so are you planning on being resident in Portugal (i.e. living here for more than 183 days per year), or just spending winter here? If only spending winter here, the maximum you can stay is 90 days out of 180 days (after 90 days you have to leave schengen for 90 days before you can return)

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
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@pamalcobacaim not planning to live permanently, at least not for the foreseeable future. We are building a house which will be winter use as Carl would say a "Snowbird".

I have been trying to get an answer from Gilda at iemmigrante, but she doesn't reply.

I asked the question on a recent webinar and the expert said that I can can apply for an extra period of up to 90 days, but I have to already be in Portugal.

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
Joined: 13 years ago

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@tygger

What you're looking for is in the first link PamAlcobaca posted, governed by Article 72 of Lei 23/2007.

1 - A prorrogação de permanência pode ser concedida:
a) Até cinco dias, se o interessado for titular de um visto de trânsito;
b) Até 60 dias, se o interessado for titular de um visto especial;
c) Até 90 dias, se o interessado for titular de um visto de residência;
d) Até 90 dias, prorrogáveis por um igual período, se o interessado for titular de um visto de curta duração ou tiver sido admitido no País sem exigência de visto;
e) Até um ano, se o interessado for titular de um visto de estada temporária.
2 - A prorrogação de permanência pode ser concedida, para além dos limites previstos no número anterior, na pendência de pedido de autorização de residência, bem como em casos devidamente fundamentados.
3 - Por razões excepcionais ocorridas após a entrada legal em território nacional, pode ser concedida a prorrogação de permanência aos familiares de titulares de visto de estada temporária, não podendo a validade e a duração da prorrogação de permanência ser superior à validade e duração do visto concedido ao familiar.
4 - A prorrogação de permanência concedida aos cidadãos admitidos no País sem exigência de visto e aos titulares de visto de curta duração é limitada a Portugal sempre que a estada exceda 90 dias por semestre, contados desde a data da primeira passagem das fronteiras externas.
5 - Sem prejuízo das sanções previstas na presente lei e salvo quando ocorram circunstâncias excepcionais, não são deferidos os pedidos de prorrogação de permanência quando sejam apresentados decorridos 30 dias após o termo do período de permanência autorizado.
6 - A prorrogação de permanência é concedida sob a forma de vinheta autocolante de modelo a aprovar por portaria do Ministro da Administração Interna.

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@old-bloke thanks for the reply, but it's not much use to me if you're going to copy and paste from the website,  it's all Greek to me, or Portuguese 😂.

I can only refer to the webinar.

I have given up with Gilde so I'll now look for another immigration expert.

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
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@tygger

How weird is that? Who would have thought that Portuguese legal text would be written in Portuguese. 😀 

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@old-bloke🤣🤣🤣 you're about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

FWIW some of the Portuguese website is actually in English, guess why?

Probably because the country GDP is 80% tourism, that majority of visitors speak English, even as second language, that Portuguese is very difficult to learn and not many expats even speak it.

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Admin
(@thomasribatejo)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 469

Notwithstanding the difficulties of Portuguese, and the extent to which people speak English, the law is only written in, and valid in, Portuguese.  If you plan an investment here, then you need to work with it, or with someone who has complete command of it and can represent you.  

Most UK-origin people moved here under the EU rules, and as they changed so recently, there has yet to be a wide, common understanding of how everything works now that the UK is a "third country".  Most, but not all, of it is the same as has long been the case for, say, the US.  For this reason, it's sensible for people to refer you to the letter of the law.

Agencies dealing with UK clients are on a steep learning curve, and picking up a lot of loose ends from existing clients as well as new ones.  This, I think, explains the lack of response - and also why there are few reliable web pages answering the kinds of questions in this thread.

If your plans involve investment, and other legal issues like overstaying visas, please persist in seeking professional advice, rather than basing your decisions on webinars and discussions which do not specifically cover your precise needs.

Meanwhile, all the responses you've received here are intended to be helpful!

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
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@thomasandmatthew please don't disparage the experts on the webinar, they are as expert as you, possibly more so as they are professional people and not people from the pub.

But as I've said I am seeking professional advice.

It's no big deal as I don't consider building a house just to escape the UK weather counts as much of an investment, it's just better than renting or staying in a hotel.

We looked at Spain and Italy, but decided on The Algarve due to the people, weather and ease of access from where we live.

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Admin
(@thomasribatejo)
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Posts: 469

@tygger I'm not disparaging anyone at all (I made no negative comment whatsoever about the experts on the webinar!), I am merely pointing out that unless someone is responding specifically to your situation, then what they say may not be complete or accurate regarding your situation (without prejudice to their intentions).

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@thomasandmatthew That's fine, but I did ask Mr Reid the exact question, but I  would like to have the situation confirmed. TBH it's not a headship to drive to Gibraltar for a weekend break or even pop over to Moyocco for a break, to just satisfy the Schengen agreement.

The chances are that I wouldn't need more than 90 days at a time, but I do want to establish the requirements.

I'm not the only one who is disappointed with Gilde's lack of response.

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
Joined: 13 years ago

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@tygger

Popping to Gibraltar or Morocco for a weekend won't work, Schengen rules are a maximum of 90 days in any 180 days, not 90 days, leave the Schengen area and reset the clock for another 90 in. (And that's ignoring the current negotiations for Gibraltar to be co-opted into Schengen)

Subject to any future agreement between the UK and Portugal (which may or may not happen) your options are those that have been applicable to third country citizens for decades. Limit your stays in the Schengen area to 90 days in every 180, or get a Portuguese visa extension as per the legal text I posted earlier which would allow you to stay longer than 90 days BUT such an extension is only valid in Portugal and is not valid in the rest of the Schengen area.

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@old-bloke Thank you,  you seem to be agreeing with the advice that was given by Mr Reis, which is that I can apply to extend a 90 visitor visa whilst I'm in Portugal, for up to a further 90 days.

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
Joined: 13 years ago

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Posts: 1920

@tygger

🤣I haven't heard anyone use that phrase since I left the UK.

Be very wary of reading information on websites, even official ones, as a lot gets lost in the translation.

One of the most misleading examples of that is in fact on the official SEF website regarding EU citizen registrations. I quote (note the two words I've highlighted in bold);
"If you are an EU/EEA/Switzerland citizen and intend to stay in Portugal for a period exceeding three months, please apply for your ​REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE FOR EU/EEA/SWITZERLAND CITIZEN"

"Please apply" suggests it's voluntary, it's not, it's compulsory. The wording of the law (translated) actually stipulates at Article 14.1 (I've highlighted the relevant word in bold);
"Citizens of the Union whose stay in the national territory extends for a period of more than three months must complete the registration formalizing their right of residence within 30 days after three months of entering the national territory."
Then at Article 30.1 we find;
"Failure to comply with any of the obligations provided for in paragraph 1 of article 14, paragraph 1 of article 15 and paragraph 3 of article 17 constitutes an infraction punishable by a fine of (euro) 400 to (euro) 1500."

The difference between "please apply" and "must" could cost €1500.

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@old-bloke I don't think that I'm a EU citizen so although I get your point, its not relevant, at least not until an agreement is reached.

I don't know these websites that you refer to and because the situation is not settled that's not a reason for Hold a to not bother with replying.

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 Anonymous
Joined: 52 years ago

Posts: 0

@tygger

Just ignore the old guy. For some reason he has been less than useful to a lot of people. It is not your fault. I will do my best to help or  find the answers if you would be kind enough to repeat the question.

@peggyL

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
Joined: 13 years ago

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Posts: 1920
Posted by: @peggyl

@tygger

Just ignore the old guy. For some reason he has been less than useful to a lot of people. It is not your fault. I will do my best to help or  find the answers if you would be kind enough to repeat the question.

@peggyL

That's your third attack on my character.

You might want to research Chapter VI of the Portuguese Código Penal (Penal Code) before continuing such attacks, the penalties are probably some of the most draconian of any modern western society.

Like so many of your posts that put others at risk of becoming law breakers, your attacks on my honour on this public forum also put the operators of this forum (forums are classed as media) at risk of such.

I believe you struggle with proper research (you post so much mis-information) so here's some bullet points from Chapter VI (translated for you).

Whoever, addressing a third party, imputing to another person, even in the form of suspicion, a fact, or formulating a judgment on him, offensive to his honour or consideration, or reproducing such an imputation or judgment, is punished with imprisonment up to 6 months or a fine up to 240 days.

Anyone who insults another person, imputing facts to him, even in the form of suspicion, or speaking words to him, offensive to his honour or consideration, shall be punished with a prison sentence of up to 3 months or a fine of up to 120 days.

If the crime is committed through the media, the agent is punished with a prison sentence of up to 2 years or a fine of not less than 120 days.

And just think - 2 years jail time and your right to reside in Portugal can be revoked.

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@peggyl Thank you Peggy I have reached a similar conclusion, he ridiculed me by copying and pasting a Portuguese language document implying that I was stupid for expecting it to be in English, when I knew there was an English version, the same one that Pam kindly provides a link to.

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
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Posts: 1920
Posted by: @tygger

@peggyl Thank you Peggy I have reached a similar conclusion, he ridiculed me by copying and pasting a Portuguese language document implying that I was stupid for expecting it to be in English, when I knew there was an English version, the same one that Pam kindly provides a link to.

May I remind you of the exchange we had on the 18th March when you asked the same question re visa extensions;

@tygger

I think what you are after is a visa extension as there are temporary stay visas (for specific reasons - scroll down on the first link for what they are) and visa extensions for those who entered under a Schengen visa or the short stay visa/visa waiver system (applicable to UK and US citizens). The second link outlines the process, fees and forms necessary, if you entered with a Schengen visa go to the first link and click Schengen visa.

Both the Schengen & visa waiver extensions allow the usual 90 day limit to be extended to 180 days, BUT that extension is only applicable in Portugal so you would have to stay in Portugal.

If you are a UK citizen, SEF and the British Embassy have announced that due to Covid travel restrictions, UK citizens who arrived in Portugal before 31/12/20 and are still in Portugal will not be subject to the 90 day limit that applies to those arriving after 31/12/20 as their entry was under the old free movement rules. That same announcement also clarified that the requirement to register after 90 days is also waived. I can't remember if there is an expiry date to this waiver though.

Types of visa extension.

Extension to short stay visa/visa waiver

@old-bloke Many thanks for the info. I'm still in the UK but hoping to travel when the builders start construction, from what you're saying it just means that when I'm in Portugal then I can apply to extend when I'm getting new to using up my 90 days.

Which just goes to prove there's no pleasing some people.

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Admin
(@astridff)
Joined: 2 years ago

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Posts: 400

@old-bloke @tygger @peggyl 

Hi Old Bloke, Tygger & Peggy,

You know we all value your contribution to our site but we try extremely hard to make this a friendly forum for people to communicate. We do not want to become like Facebook with a lot of negativity.

Of course, we understand people had different opinions and advice, but we would love it if you could keep it friendly.

We appreciate your cooperation.

Astrid

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@astridff dear Astrid I was going to contact you via DM regarding the comments by the Old Guy, but as you have gone public I would just say that I find him to be condescending, interferring and confusing, he seems to seek out confrontation and his veiled threat to Peggy about criminal prosecution for her, IMHO, innocous comments was beyond the pale.

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Premium Member
(@jeanne)
Joined: 1 year ago

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Posts: 274

@tygger. I totally disagree 🙁

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 146

@old-bloke The reason that you are replying is not because I keep asking the same question, it was because I answered a query form a new post, you are not the font of all knowledge and I find it insulting that you attempt to ridicule for not being able to read Portuguese wneh I knew that there was an English language version on the government website. Following on from you unhelpful comments I did say that my situation was not clear and that I was in discussion with Portuguese experts, who have , today, confirmed exactly what visa extensions are available to me, so all you have done is sow doubt and confusion, which have shown that much of your advice is worthless.

I think it is also disrespectful to threaten a fellow lady member with some form of lega/criminal action, where you did manage to find an english language version.

In future please do not respond and/or reply to any of my posts.

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Ask Our Expats Consultant
(@pamalcobaca)
Joined: 1 year ago

Member
Posts: 175

@tygger I sent you the link to the English version

 

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

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Posts: 146

@pamalcobaca Thank you Pam, this is the site that I had found and sought clarification about, from Daniel Reis, when he guessed on a webinar.

The option seems to have been suspended during this covid situation, unless the visitor is already in Portugal.

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Premium Member
(@tygger)
Joined: 4 years ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 146

@pamalcobaca Yes pamal you did, as I said in one of my replies to the Old G** . I had already studied that document and had sought clarification from Daniel dos Reis who has clarified my options, I was quite happy with my situation until the Old G** sowed the seeds of doubt.

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Posts: 10
Community Member
Topic starter
(@krisw83)
Active Member
Joined: 8 months ago

Im planning to move and live permanently in portugal. I want to officially exist and pay tax there full time. 

i really appreciate everyone’s input and help. Thanks!

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3 Replies
VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
Joined: 13 years ago

Noble Member
Posts: 1920

@krisw83

In which case you need to follow the advice PamAlcobaca has already given you and apply for a residency visa whilst you are in the UK.

https://vistos.mne.gov.pt/en/national-visas/general-information/type-of-visa#fixed-residency

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 Anonymous
Joined: 52 years ago

Posts: 0

@krisw83

You do need to apply for your residency VISA while in the UK. There are many companies that have come into existence to assist with this and that is one of the choices for representation. If you choose to hire a company, I would suggest you investigate their credentials. If you would like to see some official information from the Immigration website, this link will take you to the SEF site:                 https://imigrante.sef.pt/en/solicitar/

from there choose the green box that is relevant to you, "working in Portugal" and continue to choose what questions you want answered. This site is in English. I hope this helps, good luck. And please ask if you need anything else.

@peggyL

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Premium Member
(@paulr)
Joined: 10 months ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 141

@krisw83 When you apply for your Visa in the Uk ensure you apply to the correct PT Embassy in your area Look on their website and it will tell you which one to use. Otherwise you get even more delays.

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Posts: 10
Community Member
Topic starter
(@krisw83)
Active Member
Joined: 8 months ago

OK, so Ill be applying for a VISA before I get to Portugal - But what kind would I need if I had £12000 in my account, and wanted to work freelance when i get there, but dont have a contract with an employer?

Thanks

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1 Reply
VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
Joined: 13 years ago

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Posts: 1920

@krisw83

The first one on the list - work (Residency visa for independent work purposes or entrepreneurs) - would appear to be the appropriate one in the circumstances you describe.

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Posts: 10
Community Member
Topic starter
(@krisw83)
Active Member
Joined: 8 months ago

OK, I think Im gonna need to pay someone to handhold me here, can anyone recommend a service that is up to date with getting Brits into Portugal permanently to live and work?
Thanks

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1 Reply
 Anonymous
Joined: 52 years ago

Posts: 0

@krisw83

there are a lot of those around right now. A new one seems to spring up every day. I suggest you do a google search for companies and email or call several to ask some questions such as, 1. how long have they been in business (those in business longer will have a good web of contacts. 2. find out if they charge one lump sum and everything that would cover or if they charge by each paper they file and each separate service they supply. Both options have advantages.         3. how busy are they right now? and how long would it take to get your VISA?     Those are just a few suggestions and I do not mean to imply they are the only questions that you should ask. You may have some person issues that you need to discuss. Best Luck to you.

@peggyL

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