New residence permits for UK nationals - Page 4 – Visas, Residency & Citizenship – Expats Portugal Community Forum
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New residence permits for UK nationals

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Topic starter
(@christiaan)
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Joined: 2 years ago

Has anybody received an email inviting them to book an appointment to provide biometric data for the new residence permit yet?

I registered on brexit.sef.pt in December but haven't heard anything yet.

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(@old-bloke)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posted by: @vianina

the worst that can happen is a two-hour detention while you arrange for someone to bring your ID. 

Thanks, that's a very informative read. Having just looked at Article 250 of the Criminal Procedure Code it appears to have increased the maximum permitted detention time from 2 hours to 6 hours.

Whilst the media report makes no mention of it, Article 250 CPC says ID can be requested;
Os órgãos de polícia criminal podem proceder à identificação de qualquer pessoa encontrada em lugar público, aberto ao público ou sujeito a vigilância policial, sempre que sobre ela recaiam fundadas suspeitas da prática de crimes, da pendência de processo de extradição ou de expulsão, de que tenha penetrado ou permaneça irregularmente no território nacional ou de haver contra si mandado de detenção.

Obviously the "entered or remains in national territory" leaves all of us who are immigrants liable to being asked to produce ID whenever we are in public.

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Community Member
(@vianina)
Joined: 2 years ago

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Posts: 59

@old-bloke , for the police to demand ID from a person on the grounds of being a foreigner, they'd need well-founded suspicions (fundadas suspeitas) of the person having entered or remaining unlawfully in national territory (de que tenha penetrado ou permaneça irregularmente no território nacional). The mere situation of being a foreigner in Portugal does not make one liable to be asked to produce ID. 

You are correct regarding the increase in detention time to six hours. It so happens that I always carry my passport, but my assessment is still that the risk of harm from carrying it (loss of passport, expense of a replacement, time without ID, possible missed trips) is greater than the risk of not carrying it (up to 6 hours in custody divided by the slim probability of being asked by the police to produce it).

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(@martin)
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Joined: 17 years ago
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Community Member
(@vianina)
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(@mervyn)
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@vianina 

Thanks. Nice to know that it's making the news, finally. Will this new media coverage shame SEF into actually doing something with a little more urgency?

What neither report mentions is that, as I posted in my original comment, things are even worse for non-british spouses (like mine), who haven't even got a QR-code document to show. All they can do is lie low with expired papers, stuck here until something eventually happens.

They also don't try to give reasons for this scandalous non-action by SEF. I might suspect that it's somehow political and deliberate, something to do with ongoing friction over brexit and that we're being used as pawns in jammed-up negotiations. 

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posted by: @vianina

but my assessment is still that the risk of harm from carrying it (loss of passport, expense of a replacement, time without ID, possible missed trips) is greater than the risk of not carrying it (up to 6 hours in custody divided by the slim probability of being asked by the police to produce it).

I only seek to inform forum members when I'm aware of a consequence they might not have knowledge of, having done so members have free will and make their own decisions.

I was concerned about passport loss hence why my wife and I carried certified copies of our passports. The time and cost of obtaining them was less than the consequences of being unable to produce our passports if required.

Posted by: @vianina

they'd need well-founded suspicions (fundadas suspeitas) of the person having entered or remaining unlawfully in national territory

Who decides what a well-founded suspicion is? It's a subjective decision by the person making it. Ultimately it would be up to a court to decide if it was well-founded, and that will be 5-10 years in the future after you've complained about being detained and fined.
I've better things to do with my life than spend up to 6 hours locked up and then years afterwards arguing that I shouldn't have been.

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Community Member
(@vianina)
Joined: 2 years ago

Member
Posts: 59

@old-bloke , it is indeed generally courts who decide what a well-founded suspicion is, but the prospect of being questioned about it in court (or by a hierarchical superior when a complaint is lodged) is enough to ensure that the police don't ask for ID from "all of us who are immigrants [...] whenever we are in public." My point was that (a) the likelihood of that being asked to produce ID is pretty low and (b) carrying ID is not an obligation, contrary to popular belief, and failure to do so won't bring you either a fine (unless you were driving) or imprisonment. 

 

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Premium Member
(@itexpert7)
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Joined: 2 years ago

How does one "certify" a copy of one's passport please?

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
Joined: 14 years ago

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Posts: 2271

@itexpert7 

You can't certify a copy of your password, but a notary can certify a copy of your passport.

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VIP Member
(@old-bloke)
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Posted by: @vianina

(a) the likelihood of that being asked to produce ID is pretty low

Agreed, but it does happen.
The likelihood of my home falling down due to an earthquake is also low, but I still take out insurance for that eventuality.

Posted by: @vianina

(b) carrying ID is not an obligation, contrary to popular belief, and failure to do so won't bring you either a fine (unless you were driving) or imprisonment.

Those who have been fined for not carrying ID would disagree with you.

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Community Member
(@vianina)
Joined: 2 years ago

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Posts: 59

@old-bloke , mostly I don't want to disagree with you. However, risk assessment, in addition to being subjective, also needs to be made on the basis of accurate information. At the moment, any reports of people being fined for not carrying ID are purely anecdotal (a search doesn't provide any entries for the member you mentioned, so I can't comment) and what the law says is that the penalty for not carrying ID is that you may be required to attend the police station and... provide ID. On the basis that life carries much greater risks, I for one won't be worrying about that. The reason I carry my passport is that I've lived in some fairly unpleasant countries where you could, in fact, end up in the slammer without doing much to deserve it, and old habits die hard. But, now that we've taken a look at this, I actually think I might stop carrying it. A certified copy is not a bad idea, probably.

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